The following was an interesting exchange between “Rivelino”, a Pick Up Artist (PUAs), and various other bloggers on the “manosphere”. It occured in the context of a blog post by this Christian manosphere blogger “Dalrock”, who was arguing that “serial monogamy”, that is the cycles of marriages and divorces practiced by woman who become “unhappy” in a marriage, is not morally superior to PUAs who go round sleeping with many woman in nightly succession. One is simply female promiscuity versus male promiscuity, etc. As interesting as that discussion was, what caught my attention is Rivelino’s attempt to “reduce” the moral damage and depravity of what he’s doing by postulating a limit to which he can lead a girl on and not “hurt her feelings”, etc. But the replies of the rest of the manosphere is particularly instructive as to this dodge.

Rivelino:

i think i just feel guilty — again! — that i am having blondie come over to cook me dinner when i would much rather be alone.

although that’s not true.

i want to F*** blondie but i don’t want to spend any time with her.

see the dilemma?

but when i AM f***ing her, i do feel emotionally attached to her — i feel grateful.

Sinjun:

You’re over analyzing. A perfectly f***able girl wants to come over and make you dinner. Let her.

A perfectly f***able girl is bringing her work clothes with her for the next day, telegraphing that she wants a good rogering. Don’t disappoint, and f*** her!

She KNOWS where she stands with you. Women are extremely intuitive, don’t think she can’t FEEL the vibes you subconsciously emu mating. THAT’S why she’s trying so hard. The ironic part is, if you were to start exhibiting beta like behaviors and being needy, the relationship dynamics would change; and I don’t mean in your favor.

I think your letting your conscience get the best of you here. Think back to your beta days and how the chicks were merciless. Do you want to go back to that? Remember the pain?

I’m NOT advocating bitter revenge, far from it. But don’t let yourself go soft. Live with integrity. Do what pleases YOU, and let her do what pleases her. If she doesn’t like something, she’s an adult and can disengage herself from the situation. This girl’s been with at least 20 guys right? Well guess what? She knows the deal. This isn’t her first lap around the track.

Do you, and let her do her.

Dalrock:

Sinjun is absolutely right.  There is no moral reason men should offer to play the chump in the freewheeling SMP (Sexual Market Place).  It would be good advice to tell Blondie to be smarter about the way she hooks up, but it would be wrong to tell Rivelino that he has an obligation to offer this woman (temporary) exclusivity and emotional investment.

Rivelino:

“The ironic part is, if you were to start exhibiting beta like behaviors and being needy, the relationship dynamics would change; and I don’t mean in your favor.”

i agree, this part was brilliant. nice work, sinjun.

but this part *does* still make me sad:

“This girl’s been with at least 20 guys right? Well guess what? She knows the deal. This isn’t her first lap around the track. Do you, and let her do her.”

basically, that means “it’s every man for himself!” — and i do find that to be kind of immoral. wasn’t the idea that we should treat other people as ends in themselves, not as a means to an end?

i mean, i am still doing it. i am still stringing blondie along. i am not lying to her, or telling her that i love her or anything, but i am still taking her calls, still telling her she should come visit me (she moved back to barcelona), and still not “helping her” realize that although she thinks that i am her soul mate, i just see her as a fuck buddy.

now, i *know* she is a big girl and that she can take care of herself, but isn’t the whole point of society to help others when they are weak and vulnerable? i mean, i know game is powerful and all, but damn, i really worked this girl over — she says that i am her drug, that she is crazy about me, that i am her soul mate, that she can’t stop thinking about me, blah blah — shit, i just feel bad.

this girl has lost it.

love is blind, as they say.

they were right.

i mean, i know she was vulnerable already, when i met her — in a new city, just turned 31, parents recently divorced, attempting to switch careers — and i knew that when i “targeted her” for sex — i just never thought that it would work out so well.

and again, i know that a lot of her “love” for me is just purely physiological — to say, sexual — cause i fuck her brains out etc — but shit, combine my alpha rough sex moves — which i do have down, if i say so myself — with her emotional vulnerable state, and my game and frame control, and this girl didn’t stand a chance!

admittedly, blondie was not at all “my type”, so it was easy for me to be indifferent and unreactive and to dominate her without being nervous about losing her — unlike CC, for example, who is really beginning to get to me, to the point that i am afraid that i am acting smitten towards her, and that people in the office can see (!) — so i just want to clarify, by no means am i an alpha or anywhere near an alpha, i am very much a beta, only with flashes of alpha — flashes of alpha, and usually only around 6s and 7s.

anyway, all i am saying is that i feel that i am taking advantage of this girl, and that i should stop. i think i have crossed the line, from moral to immoral. i am being an utter and complete asshole to her — but here is the catch — SHE FUCKING LOVES IT.

the more of an asshole i am to her, the more i ignore her, and tease her, and treat her like shit — THE MORE SHE WANTS ME.

and *that* is the part that totally throws me for a loop — STILL.

i mean, wtf.

how the fuck can i respect women as a whole WHEN THEY ARE SO FUCKED UP — *especially*, like sinjun said, especially since i have been on the other end of the stick so many times — pining after a girl who i want to shower with love and kindness blah blah — but instead, she goes out and fucks the bad boy who treats her like shit.

i have suffered that a lot. SO MANY MEN have suffered that a lot, especially because of the current SMP and its radical changes since feminism took over.

so now *I* am the bad boy. the tables have turned! and i should enjoy it.

but i don’t.

and yet i still do string her along — cause she fucks really good, and cause i don’t have anyone better to fuck, and cause i am being completely and utterly selfish, putting my insatiable sexual needs before her emotional well being.

well, fuck it. if there is one thing i have learned in my almost two years in the community, it’s ME FIRST. nice guys don’t get nothing. they don’t get pussy, they don’t get good girls, they don’t get bad girls, they don’t get slut — NICE GUYS DON’T GET SHIT.

so yeah, i am way over being a nice guy. my new love mantra stated that pretty emphatically.

sorry, blondie.

it’s you or me — and i choose me.

ps. so wait, to bring it back home, what i think i am saying is that i fundamentally disagree with your post.

“There is no moral reason men should offer to play the chump in the freewheeling SMP.”

yeah, maybe, to a point. but maybe once a girl starts saying that you are her soul mate — maybe that is when it’s time to cut the cord — maybe that’s when the man *does* have the “moral obligation” to pinch her, tell her to stop dreaming, and to stop falling for bad boys, and to wake up and search for a real life beta husband — basically what doug1 advised.

dalrock, what do you think, is that a decent compromise?

Dalrock:

If I agree, every promiscuous woman will understandably take this as my stating that they are owed this. It is a statement that they have a right to be promiscuous and enter into deliberately ambiguous relationships, and deserve to expect that this ambiguity won’t work out against them. I would be telling them that if by keeping things ambiguous, keeping their options open, and not pursuing true commitment they ended up getting burned a man must have failed them. Hamsters don’t need more encouragement. Moreover, I would be telling you there is a moral way to be promiscuous. In that case my message to both of you would be wrong.

Rmaxd:

Make no doubt, blondie thinks of herself a gift to Riv, ie submission to Riv, this is what keeps her attracted to him …

Men dominate, women submit, reverse the roles & you kill the relationship & gina tingles …

Rivelino:

“Men dominate, women submit, reverse the roles & you kill the relationship & gina tingles …”

completely agree.

wait, let me restate that, COMPLETELY AGREE.

still though, my question is, when is domination *too much* domination? when does psychosexual dominance turn into psychosexualABUSIVE dominance?

i mean, there has to be a line somewhere. we all have to admit that, otherwise we are simply cruel.

Dalrock:

There is a line in Apocalypse Now about issuing speeding tickets at the Indy 500. This feels about the same to me. This path leads to trying to create elaborate rules of the road for hookups. One can argue the minutia, but the whole exercise is futile. She wants to be dominated and she doesn’t want to find a man worthy of committing to whom she can trust to always have her best interests at heart. She wants to be dominated by whichever man makes her tingle at the moment. And she wants that to end well. I don’t know how to make that end well for her. Do you?

Rivelino:

“She wants to be dominated by whichever man makes her tingle at the moment. And she wants that to end well. I don’t know how to make that end well for her. Do you?”

again, very wise.

so i guess i will continue to fuck her until she wises up to my shenanigans.

Leap of a Beta:

Riv,

Right now it seems that you and Blondie are both in a rare overlap of having mutually enjoyable interactions. Maybe not ALL of the time, but those that the two of you have issues with individually seem to be worth putting up with for the things you’re both enjoying.

With this kind of relationship, you’re not going to necessarily be enjoying the same items.

Stop getting torn up about it. You each enjoy it, You’re each being honest. Its rare to get that. Don’t knock the small overlap men and women have in the way they enjoy things. Its not your job to police her thoughts, feelings, and actions. Doing so stretches yourself thin on resources, lowers yourself in her eyes, and also takes away any holding her accountable for her actions and acknowledging she’s an individual who can make her own choices.

Feminists and white knights will do enough of that without you helping them.

Rivelino:

no. i kinda hate her guts.

except when i’m horny, in which case i want to fuck her, and then have her leave the premises.

i hate her and i hate myself for needing her pussy — i want to have higher value so i can get better pussy, and not have to “settle” for her pussy, and her annoying clinginess, and her 6 face.

i want a girl with a 9 face.

so for that i need to become much higher value.

i need to work on developing my talents. like what rollo was writing about in his last post.

Leap of a Beta:

Hmmm. I’ll still stand by my statement at the end that its her own choice. Take whatever you can gain from that.

I don’t know then actually. I’ve had angry sex, but never sex with someone I’ve hated AT THAT TIME. So I got nothing for you there. Though honestly, I just don’t take time to even talk with people I hate. The idea of sticking my penis in something I hate is just…. foreign, to me? But you have to be a cold hearted, hypocritical bitch to earn that kind of ire.

Rivelino:

not that kind of hate. i mean, she is actually a warm, loving person. yeah, she is needy and clingy and deluded and she rode the cock carousel too long, etc — but she doesn’t deserve to be hated for that.

she is not a “rotten to the core, vapid, egotistical” type of person, is what i mean.

the reason i “hate” her is because when i look at her, it’s like looking into a mirror, and seeing *my* reflection of greed and horniness and seeing all my SMP shortcomings.

so really, i hate her for how she makes me feel about *myself*.

i would love to fall in love — i know i shouldn’t write that, or even feel that — i am my own salvation after all — but it’s true, i would love to meet a really cool, really beautiful girl, and fall for her, and be with her for a LONG time — as much as i want to change my core, that’s who i am. i was with a girl for 10 years. i like being in a relationship, i am realizing.

of course, i gotta kill off my beta side, and i am working on that, but it does turn out that i like the companionship of a special person.

so when i see a hot, cool, beautiful, warm girl like CC, my heart kinda jumps. would LOVE to date her. and then i see what i *can* currently get in the SMP — that is blondie — and i feel like, blah.

so blondie just reminds me of my shortcomings.

i am repeating myself.

Overall, I find this to be a highly amusing exchange. An analogy I can think of is that of Guantanamo Bay attempting to reduce the immorality of their practice of torture by being a multiracial and equal opportunity employer of torturers. It’s amusing in that Rivelino is trying to reduce the harshness of the pure “game” of sex outside marriage by arbitarily drawing a line somewhere which would somehow miraculously make it less immoral. But Dalrock magnificiently refuses such tricks and points out with ruthless consistency that if you want to play the sexual game outside of the context of real marriage and absolute and total loyalty and fidelity, it’s absolutely no holds barred and no strings attached, and no one is allowed to whine or cry about it if one gets injured in the wild wild west of the SMP out there away from the safety of true marriages.

But somehow, one can’t help feeling sorry too for him, in that there is some part of him that wants to have a “proper” family life, but has been rendered impossible by his socio-political culture and environment. So it’s literally every man and woman for themselves.